Paris
Cran represents French black people and its aim is to fight against discrimination. How much discrimination is there in France?
Do you realise that in France data on discrimination towards black people did not use to be available? To find a way to fill this hole, Cran commissioned a barometer from TNS, a survey research institute, which is the first survey of its kind. It was carried out in January, and revealed that 61% of black people interviewed say they have been a victim of discrimination in the past 12 months. It goes on to say that compared to other French people, when you are black you have 2.25 less chance of becoming management and 1.5 more of working on a factory line or of working in a fast food restaurant. 81% of black people are over 18, and nevertheless, this is the daily reality of millions of fellow citizens, in the shadows of the promises of our republican ideal of equality and fraternity.
Does this mean that the republican model of integration is not working?
The fact that it is not working is proof which is hard to hide. Despite this fact I am not asking for our model to be rejected, but for it to be improved. The current path preferred by the French model is that of the individual. The idea at the core of public politics on integration in France is that individuals must be able to blend into the crowd and that it must not be possible to differentiate between old foreigners and new citizens. This path is suitable for some populations which are considered phenotypically similar. It is less suitable for diverse populations: for example black people, for whom it is always possible to remark a difference, even after becoming citizens. The aim is above all to ensure that these groups be considered a part of the political collective. What is needed is an extra collective stage before individual integration, and we need to make every citizen understand that one can be black and French, and Maghrib and French. This is the stage where we are currently at.
The presidential elections are coming up. In this campaign are the candidates confronting the themes of discrimination and integration?
Yes, but not necessarily through concrete proposals. A few weeks ago we sent the candidates a questionnaire, with the aim of finding out what their proposals were for reducing the discrimination to which the black population are victim. We have made public the answers of the 5 main candidates (Jean-Marie Le Pen was not interviewed). Regarding the use of the statistics on diversity in the fight against racial discrimination Marie George Buffet (Communist Party), Dominique Voynet (Green Party), François Bayrou (Central Party) and Nicolas Sarkozy (Right-wing) have stated they are rather in favour of respecting all anonymity. Whereas Ségolène Royal has said not to be in favour because, as she explained, the aim of revealing discrimination can turn against itself, by filing citizens according to criteria which go against our republican values.
What do you want from the candidates?
To be pragmatic and to tell us clearly what they will do to reduce inequality, which black people are the victim of. After the alarming analysis established by the Cran barometer, it is up to the political figures to find a solution. In parallel, I have published a book, Blacks In France, which makes solid concrete proposals regarding work, the home and education, which could easily be included in a programme.
What are your thoughts on Nicolas Sarkozy’s proposed “positive discrimination? Does it not contradict the republican model?
Not at all! “Positive discrimination” is an impossible expression. It is difficult for discrimination to be positive and it is interesting that the English expression “affirmative action” has been translated as such. To find a better translation, at the heart of “affirmative action”, there is the question of equality which aims to make the republican principle a reality. If several candidates are on the same starting line, and one of them suffers from a handicap, affirmative action serves as a way of making up for this handicap and allowing this person to run at the same level as the others so that they stand the same chance of winning the race as the others. In our country this question is expressed violently, to the extent that it can be said that compensation of inequality is no longer a choice, but an imperative. The cause of the riots of 2005 is still present, and affirmative action is nothing more than realising the daily problems linked to skin colour, without looking to replace existing systems, but completing them and making them more efficient. Affirmative action does not mean giving blacks the upper hand, but reducing inequality linked to discrimination. If there was no discrimination there would be no need for affirmative action! You should also know that affirmative action already exists in our country and is currently used to compensate for geographical, scholastic and social handicaps. Paying more or less tax depending on whether you earn more or less? Affirmative action. ZEP (Priority Education Zones)? Affirmative action. The French use affirmative action without knowing it.
Sarkozy has suggested creating a Ministry for Immigration and National Identity. What do you think of this?
In our country one can talk of immigration, one can talk of national identity, but associating the two together means letting people think that immigration is a threat to national identity. This in turn encourages, whether consciously or not, clashes in areas which instead need to be united. It means causing tensions, while the problem France faces is to learn to separate the two concepts. In the language of politics today the word immigration clearly refers to blacks and maghribs. When we speak of immigration as a threat, it is clearly in reference to the millions of black and maghrib French people. The question which we ask ourselves today on national identity in France is not a question of immigration or integration, but a question of acceptance, because the “immigrants” we refer to are first of all French. We need to repeat, until it has been completely accepted by everyone, that one can be French and black, French and maghrib, just like one can be French and homosexual, French and Jewish. We are not less French!
Is it possible to have an idea of how black people in France will vote?
There are approximately one and half million blacks of voting age. This for me is proof enough: black people will make the difference! We must not forget we risked losing the first round of the elections in 2002 by only 200 thousand votes, those which separated Le Pen and Jospin.
Translation by Sonia Ter Hovanessian