Selma Baccar, many rejoiced following the approval of Article 20 and later of Article 45, but just as many people emphasised the risks posed for women due to the lack of references to the Personal Status Code. Do you believe there really are risks? Do women risk losing the rights they have acquired so far?
Article 20 specifies citizens’ equality, with no discrimination whatsoever, and this sets the tone for this new constitution, complying with one of the most important demands made by millions of Tunisians during the January 14th 2011 uprising, hence equality. Article 45 instead involved a lengthy battle with a happy ending. One must not forget that over a year ago the majority party Ennahdha tried, in the first draft of the constitution, to use Article 27 to impose the concept of the “complementarity” of men and women with a majority vote in the Rights and Freedom Commission. This article caused enormous controversy in Tunisia and elsewhere, to the extent that Ennahdha was obliged to withdraw it. After that we tried to cooperate with the women in that party to propose a shared article to the National Constituent Assembly. Various forms were addressed without, however, reaching an agreement, because the idea we democrats wanted to register as far as equality is concerned gave rise to ancient fears in others; fear of altering equality in inheritance which is greatly condemned by Islam. Men also resisted “equality” in electoral matters which revealed women’s political talents.
Reference to the Personal Status Code was an even riskier battle since our colleagues’ proposal mentioned absolute acquisition, insinuating rights bestowed on women by the Koran, for example the Prophet’s relationship with his wives, while we demanded the use of legal texts such as the PSC and other laws passed after independence.
For us Article 34 was therefore a real victory that continues to be criticised by certain people who say “it is a plot against the principles of Arab-Muslim identity.”
Could you explain what ideas have led to the changes made to Article 6 and what concepts of Islam are behind this?
The condemnation of takfir – accusing someone of atheism – contained in Article 6 is a very serious accusation both at a moral and at a religious level and can be interpreted by some extremists as a call to death. It is due to this kind of allegation that some left-wing, modern, progressive and secular parties lost the last elections, but the most serious aspect is that because of this kind of allegation the activist Chokri Belaid was assassinated and many left-wing representatives have received death threats and are now accompanied everywhere by bodyguards, as I am.
We were able to add this ban to Article 6, when Ennahdha’s most radical leader Habib Ellouz, accused our colleague Moungi Rahoui of the Wattad – United Democratic Patriotic Party – the same party Chokri Belaid belonged to – of being a keffer (a non-believer) and a few hours later Moungi received dozens of death threats, so many that the Interior Ministry provided him with an armoured car and a team of security officers. The opposition asked that Habib Ellouz be dismissed and, in the form of an apology, Ennahdha proposed that takfir be added to Article 6. Now, those who declare they are “independent” from Ennahdha want the article to also condemn sacrilege concerning images of God, Mohammed and the Koran. Who knows when this long debate will end!
What do you think about keeping the death penalty?
In the National Constituent Assembly and in other settings we debated the death penalty for a year and I truly believe that this problem is more of a social issue than an ideological one. It was a lengthy social, cultural and religious debate that we have had the privilege of starting and one that needs to continue over the years to change the approach. By stating the right to life in this article, we have left the door open to change and preserved the right to abortion. This is a great result for Tunisian women. This freedom to decide about their own bodies was achieved a few years before many European countries. I am of course in favour of abolishing the death penalty.
Are you satisfied with the introduction of freedom of opinion and expression in Article 30?
I made this article my main battle in the Rights and Freedoms Commission of which I was the vice-president, keeping the debate going for five days while other articles were only discussed for a couple of hours. I am delighted and proud.
How is the life of a woman in the Constituent Assembly?
Life is frantic for women in the NCA and political trends are disorganized. Women often lead the dance even if some of them are discreet as the result of a compulsory traditionalist education.
Is the prime minister and the government’s resignation a sign of hope that the political and economic crisis will come to an end? Why did this take so long?
The government’s resignation was first of all a victory in the sense that those who wished to remain in power at all costs had to admit they had seriously confused “order” and “good governance.” The objective was not change, but to provide hope and a sign of balance because the economic and social situation is far too catastrophic. The greatest expectation is a serious stand against violence and terrorism. Furthermore, the best guarantee while awaiting a new government is to ensure that the coming elections are well organised, honest and fair and that there is a real democratic transition.
What was the most difficult aspect in your career Salma Baccar, activism, the cinema or politics?
Cinema and politics are two risky professions. In terms of knowledge, not competence, what I learned over 40 years of working in films I learned in politics in just three years. While I mainly work through my political party, especially in opposition, I always have an external perspective allowing me to act differently. Making films involves solitary creation, in spite of having a crew and assistants, while in politics it is impossible to work without a group that strongly shares the same values. Politics remains a more difficult world than the cinema and it requires more concessions, if not to one’s opponents, then sadly to one’s partners. Hence the concept of “pleasure” one has in creating is almost non-existent in politics, except when one has meetings with civil society expressing its support.
If you were to make a film on the Constituent Assembly, what genre would you choose?
The film I would like to make on these three years in the NCS would be a musical comedy, a parody of “non-fatal ridicule and deceit.”
What has really changed in Tunisia three years after Ben Alì was deposed?
Some things have improved, some have deteriorated. The best thing is Tunisian civil society, now democratic, strong, mobilised and ferociously determined to protect all it has acquired. The worst part is that the social fabric is moving towards excessive puritanism as far as clothes and relationships are concerned, as well as increased violence that even involves political assassination and terrorism on Mount Chaambi (Editor’s Note, centre-west Gasserine region) and elsewhere.
Nothing instead has changed in answering the statement of those who were involved in the uprising, with the exception of freedom of expression, at time abused, while the cost of living has risen and unemployment has soared dramatically among the poor.
How do you imaging Tunisia’s future? And what about the country’s artists (film directors, actors, authors)?
The future of artists, that of women and all the more fragile members of society, is directly linked to society’s development as a whole. Either we all change together or together we will sink. I am optimistic because the cultural conquests deeply rooted in Tunisian society will not make way for obscurantism and, although at times there is the risk of difficult moments, censorship will play a predominant role. Artists will prove they are more creative so as to avoid censorship and remain loyal to their principles.
Can one say that in approving Article 103 Tunisia will have a democratic constitution? Or is there still a great deal to be done?
Article 103 is important for implementing the law through the creation of the “Independent High Council of Justice”. We fought side by side with members of the judges’ union who were insulted and almost beaten by a number of extremists belonging to the Nahdhaoui party. The National Constituent Assembly’s vice president, Meherzia Laabidi (Ennahdha, Editor’s Note), annoyed with the union’s president, intentionally tried to confuse these activist judges who were against the dictatorship run by Ben Ali and his allies. This article is also a victory for democrats, with the exception of concessions made on one detail. This detail is the appointment of members proposed by magistrates to the President of the Republic who signs the decrees and laws in “consultation” with the prime minister, because Ennahdha is trying to give the prime minister more power in the certainty he will represent the majority in the new parliament, while everyone agrees on a mixed presidential/parliamentary system. I don’t know whether I should laugh or be afraid of these reassurances from Ennahdha. May God save us from a remake of the same scenario with a new Troika; Ennahdha and new coalitions.
Translated by Francesca Simmons